Background Playback (Streaming)...

[chilimost]

Will Kinoma support this is the relatively near future?

This is the one thing that makes me have to use other media apps still. It's funny that of the big three apps (IMO) - Kimona, Coreplayer and Pockettunes, only Pockettunes supports background playback. How hard is this to really implement? (I mean come on, even Real Player even supported it )

Seriously though, Kimona really is far ahead of all other media players when it comes to streaming, but the lack of background playback is killing me!

Any idea?


Thanks...

[Charles@Kinoma]

Originally Posted by chilimost

Will Kinoma support this is the relatively near future?

No.

We'd like to be able to offer this feature someday, so read on for more.

Originally Posted by chilimost

This is the one thing that makes me have to use other media apps still. It's funny that of the big three apps (IMO) - Kimona, Coreplayer and Pockettunes, only Pockettunes supports background playback. How hard is this to really implement?

Palm OS is like DOS and the original Mac OS, in that it doesn’t support multitasking.

Some software does clever things in order to simulate a multitasking OS. They leave bits of themselves behind, executing code in the shadows of your device, even when Palm OS thinks they're not running.

Unfortunately, that requires unsupported and relatively dangerous hacks. Because the OS doesn't support multitasking, and because it doesn't expect apps to use system resources after they exit, some system instability is unavoidable. At best, this causes occasional unexplained lags. At worse, this causes the kind of frustrating "random" crashes that most of us have experienced at one time or another.

Palm discourages those kinds of tricks, since they're aware that Palm OS is (unfairly) notorious for crashes, and that the biggest reason for them is the apps and utilities that do dangerous things to get around OS limitations.

Kinoma's goal is to build ultra-reliable software that plays nicely with others. Part of that is not doing things behind Palm OS’s back. One benefit of that philosophy is that if you ever find yourself with a system-wide problem, Kinoma Player is incredibly unlikely to be the cause. That's because Kinoma Player follows the rules, and so can't interfere with other software when it's not the active application.

The future is bright. Palm recently announced that we'll see its "Palm OS II" next year, which will support multitasking and a lot more. A modern mobile OS will allow developers like us to do more interesting things for you and our other customers.

-- Charles Wiltgen

[chilimost]

Thanks for the reply, as well as explanation,

While I can appreciate your concern, and I agree with it in principal, I think that the idea of having to wait for the next PalmOS for this kind of function is a bit of a lame answer to be honest. Especially since there is almost no possible chance that this OS will be released for any existing devices. Don't get me wrong, I really can appreciate the idea of proper programming and not wanting to destabilize the system, but I also think that it's unfortunately *way* past the point of expecting a rock stable device on any Palm pretty much since the introduction of NVFS. Perhaps apps like Pockettunes are to blame for some of the unknown crashes on my Palm, but I would gladly take the option if given it. How about adding the option as a selectable function, which you can even warn about upon choosing? The benefit seems to outweigh the potential problems... Also, I can pretty definitively say that I have occasional resets during playback within Kinoma also. Nothing excessive, but enough to occasionally take note of (in my case, always during streaming). I will admit, I know almost nothing of PalmOS programming, but I does seem odd to me that the programming of media playback in the "background" is so "unorthodox" or dangerous. Wasn't this one of the very few actually touted, assumingly in a supported fashion, newer features of PalmOS5? Perhaps not...this just is a bit surprising to me. Again, I know alot less than you regarding this, so will have to take your word on this...

Either way, I would like to commend you on taking your product to a completely new level with the version 4 release. You have really raised the bar when it comes to this type of app with genuinely useful functions that nobody else has yet to match. It just seems a shame that one of the *most* useful functions has not been yet, even years after some of the competition.

[vibri2001]

The music player that shipped with the Tapwave Zodiac allows background play. Do you know if this is the same type of hacking as Pockettunes? It would seem odd that the hardware manufacturer would ship a software package with their product which could make it unstable. I have not used it (the music player) extensively but all the apps that shipped with the Tapwave seemed very stable to me.

[Charles@Kinoma]

Originally Posted by chilimost

Thanks for the reply, as well as explanation...

You're welcome. I hoped it'd be helpful to try to explain some of the issues related to trying to "work around" rather than "work with" Palm OS.

Originally Posted by chilimost

Also, I can pretty definitively say that I have occasional resets during playback within Kinoma also. Nothing excessive, but enough to occasionally take note of (in my case, always during streaming).

That could very well be a Kinoma Player bug, which should be reported here with any URLs or Kinoma Media Guide programs that we can use to reproduce it.

If it's not consistently reproducible, it may be a conflict caused by other software. That's more common than we'd like, and part of the reason that we're slightly obsessive about being a Palm OS good citizen. Either way, our support team can help you get to the bottom of it.

Originally Posted by chilimost

I will admit, I know almost nothing of PalmOS programming, but I does seem odd to me that the programming of media playback in the "background" is so "unorthodox" or dangerous.

It's only dangerous because the OS doesn't support it. Even then it's not dangerous all the time, but software that goes behind the back of its host OS will eventually corrupt or break something because it can't coordinate with other software that's trying to do the same thing.

For anybody old enough to be familiar with DOS, "TSRs" did similarly-questionable things. From Wikipedia: The programs effectively hijacked the operating system in varying, documented or undocumented ways, often causing systems to crash on their activation or deactivation when used with particular application programs or other TSRs.

On a modern multitasking OS, this is all perfectly safe. Kinoma's founders are former core members of Apple's QuickTime team, so they have lots of experience in modern OS environments as well.

Originally Posted by chilimost

Either way, I would like to commend you on taking your product to a completely new level with the version 4 release. You have really raised the bar when it comes to this type of app with genuinely useful functions that nobody else has yet to match. It just seems a shame that one of the *most* useful functions has not been yet, even years after some of the competition.

We look forward to being able to work with the capabilities of an updated Palm OS to support this safely. Until then, we're glad you enjoy Kinoma Player 4 EX, and we appreciate the kind words.

-- Charles Wiltgen

[gjlowe]

Charles-- First of all, thanks for the fantastic application. This program continues to impress and amaze me every day I use it.

Now, that being said, I too am still tied to PocketTunes to get background play, and would gladly relinquish that if Kinoma had it. Now I understand your discussion of wanting stability, but I don't understand the part about doing it behind Palm's back. Palm sells their Treos and now the Centro with PocketTunes preinstalled. The Centro now comes with the deluxe version. They have a pretty good partnership with Normsoft, so I don't quite understand your references with regards to Palm discouraging this practice. I am not trying to beat a dead horse here, but Palm OS II is so far away, I am just hoping to hang on and not move to the Dark Side (read: Windows Mobile) before that OS comes out. So, to make a long story...well...still long, I think you would find a lot of people would be very happy with a temporary workaround to enable background play.

Just my $.02 I appreciate the program either way.

[Charles@Kinoma]

Originally Posted by gjlowe

...I understand your discussion of wanting stability, but I don't understand the part about doing it behind Palm's back. Palm sells their Treos and now the Centro with PocketTunes preinstalled.

You make an excellent point, and I understand Palm's motivation.

On the other hand, I stand behind what I've said, and I personally disable background play. It possible that I'm more careful than most about system stability -- I just can't stand unexplained crashes, file corruption, etc.

Originally Posted by gjlowe

I am not trying to beat a dead horse here, but Palm OS II is so far away, I am just hoping to hang on and not move to the Dark Side (read: Windows Mobile) before that OS comes out.

I've been a Palm fan forever, so I completely understand.

FWIW, we're listening, and we appreciate your kind words and feedback about Kinoma Player.

-- Charles Wiltgen

[chilimost]

Originally Posted by Charles@Kinoma

You make an excellent point, and I understand Palm's motivation.

On the other hand, I stand behind what I've said, and I personally disable background play. It possible that I'm more careful than most about system stability -- I just can't stand unexplained crashes, file corruption, etc.

Sorry, I *cant* resist restating this here (as from my previous post)...

While I really can appreciate the idea of proper programming and not wanting to destabilize the system, we are *way* past the point of expecting a rock stable device on any Palm pretty much since the introduction of NVFS.

I have owned the following devices: PalmV, m505, m515, Tungsten C, T|X, Treo 300, 600, 650, 700p and 755p. NOT A SINGLE ONE of these devices has been stable since the introduction of NVFS. The Tungsten C was the last stable device I had. Worrying about stability is going to drive you nuts if you plan on owning a PalmOS device now. Ahh, how I miss the days of being able to nag my co-workers w/ Windows Mobile PDAs for their stability problems, but those days are long gone... It's the interface and the apps that keep me using my Palm(s), so you might as well add the function anyway! There's really no down-side . If you're really concerned about it, as I mentioned earlier, make it an option and let the user choose it, with a warning of the risk!

Originally Posted by Charles@Kinoma

I've been a Palm fan forever, so I completely understand.

FWIW, we're listening, and we appreciate your kind words and feedback about Kinoma Player.

Okay, I feel better now... Seriously though, GREAT update with 4.4. The search function is huge. Kinoma just keeps getting better and better. Keep up the good work! Your feedback and patience for our rants is much appreciated.

[Charles@Kinoma]

Originally Posted by chilimost

While I really can appreciate the idea of proper programming and not wanting to destabilize the system, we are *way* past the point of expecting a rock stable device on any Palm pretty much since the introduction of NVFS.

I don't know the effect of NVFS is on system stability, but my personal 700p is rock-solid and basically never (2-3 times/year?) resets/crashes. I realize that I may just be luckier than average, though.

Here are the 3rd-party apps I use constantly: Kinoma Player, Beyond Contacts, ChatterEmail, Card Export, PdaReach. And of course, I turn off background playback on everything I can.

Originally Posted by chilimost

Okay, I feel better now... Seriously though, GREAT update with 4.4. The search function is huge. Kinoma just keeps getting better and better. Keep up the good work!

Thanks, we're glad you like it!

-- Charles Wiltgen

[chilimost]

Originally Posted by Charles@Kinoma

I don't know the effect of NVFS is on system stability, but my personal 700p is rock-solid and basically never (2-3 times/year?) resets/crashes. I realize that I may just be luckier than average, though.

I don't know what to say I will go out on a limb and say that you are in the *vast* minority of users with a Treo this stable. I will take your word for it, but I gotta tell you it is very, very hard to believe. This being said, I certainly suspect there are those who load few third-party apps and have relatively small amounts of data on their devices that are significantly more stable than mine, but 2-3 crashes a year is amazing to me. You must not user Blazer on any sort of regular basis .

Thanks again for your response and I'm looking forward to Kinoma's continued improvement.

[odysseus]

Originally Posted by Charles@Kinoma

The future is bright. Palm recently announced that we'll see its "Palm OS II" next year, which will support multitasking and a lot more. A modern mobile OS will allow developers like us to do more interesting things for you and our other customers.

Charles, this may be a little off-topic, so forgive me. But you're more of an optimist than most as far as Palm is concerned; it's a company that has made as many missteps as (if not more than) Apple, and they don't have a much-improved Steve Jobs at their helm.

Although one can have hopes for Jon Rubinstein, my sense is that the Palm has missed too many boats and is a has-been.

Now that Apple has announced a true SDK for the iPhone, aren't you guys at all tempted to develop for that platform? I'm sure that you could think of a really cool equivalent of Kinoma Player for it...

[Keith]

I have a Palm TX that I have had now for almost 2 years. (Palm IIIx, M515 and Zire 71) If I do not have to reset the unit at least 5 times I would worry that something is wrong.

I do use a lot of third party software and I think my biggest problems causing resets are WiFi and Versa Mail. Most of my resets are done either when loading Versa Mail or exiting the program. I love Palm and agree that the new memory is an issue. These are the things you get when you have a lot of third party developers who only think that their software is running.

I have reset a few time in Kinoma but I must admit that it was probably not the fault of the program but that it was slow and I'm impatient.

As far as running in the background I also use Pocket Tune and listen to either internet radio or MP3 while I check my downloaded information from AvantGo. To me it seems to work OK and I do not notice any more crashes from doing this.

I'm not complaining just wanted to add to the discussion that it seems if you are running Palm NVFS you are going to crash at some time.

Keith